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NTDude rebuts Winterhawk by The Crazed Asylum (TCA)

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In reply to the statement made on Maggie's second quarterly nuke/fix/totals

Question of the Day: What do you call a friend that steals your tcls from your
                     directory and gives them to others? 
             Answer: You call it,[NTDude], a former friend that was obviously 
                     untrustworthy and never a friend at all, just a bitter 
                     shell of a person trying to get people to like him.

Nothing like untrue statements being spread all over the scene about me.  Here
I will attempt to clarify some of this shit up and restore my name, as I feel
it has been damaged.  Mind you this is very lengthy and consists of not only
text I typed  here but also iRC logs of the people involved.

If I just told parts of this it would leave lots of questions unanswered.  So I
will just tell the whole flippin' thing!  Which is BS in it's own right, she
writes 5 lines of crap, I have to write a whole damn paper to defend
myself...anyways...on with the show.

It's no secret that I fell for her emotionally, I'm going through a divorce at
the current time, so I contribute my weak emotional state to that.  At the time
I met her, I was at my weakest.  During this time we talked quite a lot, became
friends and such, and I had the box owner of the shell box I run rename it to
winterhawk.  She did state that naming the box after her would cause problems,
god how true that is today.  I just wanted to do something nice for someone
because they made me feel better.  After a few months or so of friendship our
liking towards one another began to dwindle.  She would give a inch, I would
try and take a mile.  Perhaps I was just trying to cling to whatever friendship
was there, I don't know.  Eventually we got to where one couldn't stand the
other, So I ended the friendship.  I deleted her shell and quit hanging in the
channels she is in.  I also had a new DNS entry done but that could not be done
right away because other machines on the network use it as a dns server.  She
was worried about her files that were there, which was just her dupe tcl which
went with a bot (Organza) that she ran off of the shell.  I did not back them
up, when you delete a user in RedHat 5.1 it wipes all traces of them, unlike RH
4.2 where you have to go rm the /home dir...so her files were all gone.  She
was not just the only one on the box, I had other friends of mine and both hers
and mine on there as well, Cybrdeath, in particular...which is what stirs up
this whole thing.  I not only deleted her, but I deleted everyone who ran a bot
off of it, I deleted them as well because the bots were getting the domain
k-lined from everywhere, so the actual owner can only irc from like 2 servers
now.  I ended our friendship like the first week or two of june, I do not have
a exact date.

Apparently on a Sunday July 5, 1998 sometime in the morning, Cybrdeath entered
a channel which she has her dupe bot in and somehow, I don't know how, those
two ended up in a argument, and he led her to beleive that he had her dupe tcl.
Come to find out he never told her he got it from me, or where he got it from,
or if in fact he did have it.  In the end it was all a ploy just to piss her
off.  Looks like it worked.  And I had nothing to do with what those two argued
about, hell I was idle on irc that day.  When I did return, I had this message

Session Start: Sun Jul 05 16:47:26 1998
[16:47] <[Maggie]> thanks for giving my dupe tcl out to cyberdeath, nice to
know you are untrustworthy
Now I don't have that particular ident, but it was
[email protected] or something like that, it was not the
igateway.net ip that she normally uses.  I tried to find her later that night
on irc but she was either signed off or under a different nick.  Later on I
learn that she was under a different nick (How convient) and that she 'assumed'
that I gave Cybrdeath her dupe tcl, she goes on a rage and pastes all this
untrue stuff into every channel she is in...

[21:20] <Wintrhwk> welp, when Cyberdeath said he stole my tcl
[21:20] <Wintrhwk> and I showed themn waht he said
[21:20] <Wintrhwk> I pasted it into Masque        (This was from a chat we had
monday evening)
[21:20] <Wintrhwk> nuked
[21:20] <Wintrhwk> hol
[21:21] <Wintrhwk> and I think Mpower

               Cybrdeath never said I gave him her dupe tcl....she is still
               assuming that I did at this point...

Then......Monday morning, July 6th...the box that I run is 'mysteriously'
hacked and destroyed...

Session Start: Mon Jul 06 06:19:17 1998
[6:19] <HaXoRgOd> rm -rf / 
[6:19] <HaXoRgOd> rm -rf / 
[6:19] <HaXoRgOd> FuCkInG LaMeR. YoUr FtP Is MiNe BiTcH!
[6:20] <HaXoRgOd> Go FuCk YoUr-SeLf WiF Ur LiTtLe PeNiS
[6:21] <HaXoRgOd> NoW DeLeTiNg /ISO, /Home/ntdude
[6:21] <HaXoRgOd> FuCkInG LaMeR. YoUr FtP Is MiNe BiTcH!
[6:21] <HaXoRgOd> Go FuCk YoUr-SeLf WiF Ur LiTtLe PeNiS
[6:21] <HaXoRgOd> NoW DeLeTiNg /ISO, /Home/ntdude
[6:21] <HaXoRgOd> FuCkInG LaMeR. YoUr FtP Is MiNe BiTcH!
[6:21] <HaXoRgOd> FuCkInG LaMeR. YoUr FtP Is MiNe BiTcH!
[6:21] <HaXoRgOd> FuCkInG LaMeR. YoUr FtP Is MiNe BiTcH!
[6:21] <HaXoRgOd> FuCkInG LaMeR. YoUr FtP Is MiNe BiTcH!
[7:08] <HaXoRgOd> WaNnA BuY SoMe WaReZ? $1000000000.00
N> HaXoRgOd is not on IRC.
[7:13] <HaXoRgOd> WoW CaN i HaVe An AcCoUnT On ThIs RaD PhAt FtP SiTe???
N> HaXoRgOd is not on IRC.
N> HaXoRgOd is not on IRC.
| HaXoRgOd ([email protected])
| name : * I'm to lame to read BitchX.doc *
| serv : irc-e.primenet.com
| last : Mon Jul 6 06:10:17 1998
[7:34] <HaXoRgOd> NoW iTs YuR TuRn To HaXor BaCk InTo ThE SyStEm

Session Start: Mon Jul 06 06:28:01 1998
[6:28] <iids> Maggie Says Hiya and if you ever fuck with her again, I'll OwN

I have no idea who she had do this, but they wiped the whole box completely.  A
full 28 gig, they could not wipe the samba mounts, as NT would not allow the
files to be deleted, thank god.  If they could have they would have wiped over
70+gig.  She still says she did not have it done, and she will keep denying it
until she is blue in the face.  And she should be about there now.  She had all
this done to me, even before she talked to me about the situation.  She went
ahead and took for granted that he (cybrdeath) was telling the truth, based
alone on the fact that him and I are good friends.  And I had root on the box
(because I ran / operated it not only for her but it was also team PNC's shell
box, yes I'm in pinnacle, look in the .nfo if you dispute that) that Cybr and
her were on.  

Now our first conversation monday evening consisted of her again /msg me while
I was away with these lines:

Session Start: Mon Jul 06 15:40:27 1998
[15:40] <Wintrhwk> <xxxxxxxx> figured maybe wintrhawk hacked it like she did
ntdude's box
[15:40] <Wintrhwk> little paranoid aren't ya
[15:43] <Wintrhwk> uestion of the Day: What do you call a friend that steals
your tcls from your home
[15:43] <Wintrhwk>                      directory and gives them to others? 
[15:43] <Wintrhwk>              Answer: You call it,[NTDude], a former friend
that was obviously 
[15:43] <Wintrhwk>                      untrustworthy and never a friend at
all, just a bitter 
[15:43] <Wintrhwk>                      shell of a person trying to get people
to like him.

She's good at playing dumb, gotta give her that.  At this point she is acting
like nothing happened.

Look familiar?  Of course it does, that is also at the beginning of this
long-ass document...;p  I told her over and over and over and over that I did
not steal her stupid dupe tcl nor did I give it to anyone.  Here she shows more
of her patented arrogance by dumping this bullshit onto you 7 days later trying
to ruin me even more than she already has.  Not only is it me, but Cybrdeath
also has logs and logs of him telling her that he did not get that dupe tcl
from me, or if in fact he even had it.  

From Monday Evening...as soon as I returned, I replied to her, some 5+ hours

<[NTDude]> HAHA, and you tell me I am sad....You couldn't affect me directly so
you took out someone elses box, Question of the day should be: Ever seen a
fulll grown woman act like a 14 year old? Answer: Yes, wintrhwk...
[21:07] <Wintrhwk> moron, I would not hurt (box owner)
[21:07] <Wintrhwk> and if I did do it, i would have smeared it in your face
<[NTDude]> yea that is why I had 20 irc msg telling me that you said HI and if
I didn't quit fucking with you I would contineu to get owned and other misc
[21:08] <Wintrhwk> casue I know the box is his not yours....
[21:08] <Wintrhwk> you bring so much shiton that poor guy it is not funny
<[NTDude]> of course you didn't do it...you are not that intelligent, but
whoever did it was smart, tell them I said they did a godo job
[21:08] <Wintrhwk> I asked no one to do it, as I would not harm (box owner)
<[NTDude]> (box owner)? Nah...I do not bring anything on him, if anyone did it
was you when I was a dumbass and brought you into the picture
<[NTDude]> of course your not going to admit it, your a fucking liar...
[21:09] <Wintrhwk> I am still on another box of his
<[NTDude]> Tell them I said =they did a good job whoever it was
[21:09] <Wintrhwk> he knows I would not harm him
[21:10] <Wintrhwk> Matt, if I wanted to harm you, I know people that could keep
your connection off the net...you are not worth th etrouble...
<[NTDude]> whatever....I see how you operate now even more clearly...when
people wake up and realize your not all that and do not wish to associate with
you you have to destroy them
<[NTDude]> and as far as this tcl bit I have no idea what you are talking
about, from what I gather about that it looks like you and cybrdeath code a lot
in the same way...
[21:12] <Wintrhwk> Believe what you will, I did not touch that box nor ask
anyone to...and need no one to take care of you. You have to look at yourself
everyday, that is punishment enough
[21:12] <Wintrhwk> haha in your words...you are a fucking liar
<[NTDude]> you can think that if you want...I am perfectly sane..
<[NTDude]> I just realized how you operate
[21:13] <Wintrhwk> right, you are insane enough to have removed the shit
yourself, you thrive on the need for acceptance and attention

She thinks I hacked/destroyed my own box...*sigh*  Told you she was arrogant...

[21:13] <Wintrhwk> send me the logs of people messaging you, I will see if I
can figure out who they are
[21:14] <Wintrhwk> beyond that, I would not harm (box owner)
<[NTDude]> Maggie, the people msg me were random nicks generated by a shell the
hacker created on the box
[21:14] <Wintrhwk> well, I did not have anyone do it nor did I
[21:15] <Wintrhwk> send me the log..
<[NTDude]> ok hold
[21:15] <Wintrhwk> I will be more than happy to help track down whomever it was
N> 2405 bytes sent to Wintrhwk in 4 seconds (0.6kb/s)
<[NTDude]> that was the main one
<[NTDude]> there was like 5 different nicks they used, all come from the same
[21:17] <Wintrhwk> where do they say my name?
<[NTDude]> in another nick
<[NTDude]> hold
<[NTDude]> her e comes 8 little files, most are just one or two liners
N> 132 bytes sent to Wintrhwk in 1 second (0.1kb/s)
<[NTDude]> I think the iis one is the one where they say your name but I would
have to look here to make sure, it's one of those
[21:19] <Wintrhwk> Session Start: Mon Jul 06 06:28:01 1998
[21:19] <Wintrhwk> [6:28] <iids> Maggie Says Hiya and if you ever fuck with her
again, I'll OwN Jew!!
[21:19] <Wintrhwk> Session Close: Mon Jul 06 08:23:59 1998
<[NTDude]> yup
<[NTDude]> there it is
<[NTDude]> So it is someone you know
<[NTDude]> some goofed up typing if I must say so :)
[21:20] <Wintrhwk> welp, when Cyberdeath said he stole my tcl
[21:20] <Wintrhwk> and I showed themn waht he said
[21:20] <Wintrhwk> I pasted it into Masque
[21:20] <Wintrhwk> nuked
[21:20] <Wintrhwk> hol
[21:21] <Wintrhwk> and I think Mpower
[21:21] <Wintrhwk> so anyone could have sought the revenge
<[NTDude]> he did not steal your tcl...but you did that on purpose knowing
someone would do something <g>      
[21:21] <Wintrhwk> but I would not have anyone intentionally harm (the box
<[NTDude]> surely you don't think I am that stupid...
<[NTDude]> nor did i give him your tcl
[21:21] <Wintrhwk> He said he did, why should I not have had him at his word?
<[NTDude]> well if he stole it I don't see how he did it, he would have had to
breach root in order to do that...only root and you could get in your dir
<[NTDude]> and he rarely logged in, he was less than you at login's
<[NTDude]> but it would only take one login but you know good the security was
on that box
[21:24] <Wintrhwk> well talk to him and ask him why he said he had it
<[NTDude]> and I find it very 'odd' that you were not on irc this morning when
all this shit was happening, your always on , especially in the morning
<[NTDude]> I already did
<[NTDude]> he told me he did not have it
[21:24] <Wintrhwk> i was on here all night and morning per usual
[21:24] <Wintrhwk> well ask him why he said he had it and implicated you
<[NTDude]> well look at the timestamps, I could not locate you with your
Wintrhwk nick or your [Maggie] nick or your Ted or [Ted] nicks...
[21:24] <Wintrhwk> I had another nick and was with cyberst in
<[NTDude]> probably to piss you off

Hmm, another nick.  Of course she had another nick, she knew exactly what was
coming.  She's using this as a cover-up, can't you see?

[21:24] <Wintrhwk> and with Handy
<[NTDude]> ahhh
[21:25] <Wintrhwk> welp he did piss me off and looks like (the box owner)
[21:25] <Wintrhwk> but I did not ask anyone to doit

As you can see I guessed it right there on the head, that Cybrdeath told her
that he had her dupe tcl to piss her off...but going on:

<[NTDude]> also whoever it was knows that I disliked the time we differed upon
the selling warez <g>
[21:25] <Wintrhwk> welp was not Handy
[21:26] <Wintrhwk> he did not know of it until this afternoon
<[NTDude]> it is someone you know rather well...and if you say you did not ask
anyone to do it they just did it...does that suprise you? it does not to me;
consdiering 300 people worship the ground you walk on, why I have no idea tho.
<[NTDude]> maybe because your just perfect.  Tell me please, what is it like
being right all the time?
<[NTDude]> I bet your life is so boring it is unreal
[21:26] <Wintrhwk> Matt, yeah, you are right
[21:27] <Wintrhwk> start the normal slams of the irc
<[NTDude]> I don't even care who it was...nor does (box owner)...he was
actually gonna format the box and reload a different OS on there we are going
to try something but he forgot his keys to the server room..
<[NTDude]> it didn't affect anything, all the stuff is either burned or backed
up somewhere else
[21:27] <Wintrhwk> if (box owner) thought it was me I would be off his other
[21:27] <Wintrhwk> He knows I am not like that
<[NTDude]> he's probably afraid to take you off in fear  that you will have
that one wiped as well
[21:28] <Wintrhwk> no, (box owner) is not afraid of me
<[NTDude]> I guess we are even...I wiped out like what maybe 2 mb of your
files, you wipe out 71 gig, I guess that is fair
<[NTDude]> oh wait you didn't do it, someone else did
[21:28] <Wintrhwk> Believe what you want Matt
[21:28] <Wintrhwk> your mouth pisses a lot of people off
<[NTDude]> Funny, I havn't been online much like the last 1.5 weeks...
N> The time is now 9:30pm.
<[NTDude]> one more thing...next time you talk to whomever it was that did
this, can you ask them how they did it, (box owner) and I both would like to
know...who ever it was was good, very good...
[21:31] <Wintrhwk> told you I had no one do this..I would not harm (box owner)
<[NTDude]> give you a idea how good, when I msg (box owner) this morning and
told him we were hacked he thought i was joking
<[NTDude]> evidentally we missed something in the security somewhere along the
<[NTDude]> but since were not bringing linux back I guess it doesn't matter,
but it would be good to know for future reference...
<[NTDude]> Maggie, I was not born yesterday...or the day before.  Of course
your not gonna say you had it done, hell all the people in lucasville didn't
kill anyone either if you ask them...<g>
[21:33] <Wintrhwk> I would smear it in your face if I did it Matt
<[NTDude]> well, who did you give the IP too? befause the ip was re-reouted to
a whole new domain so you gave the ip to someone somewhere along the line
[21:34] <Wintrhwk> no one, i did not even know the box name anymore
[21:35] <Wintrhwk> I am on fozzy now and that is it
<[NTDude]> <g> alls you have to do is /dns <old winterhawk.CENSORED.ip and it
will reveal the new name> I said I wasnt' born yesterday, but you must think I
[21:36] <Wintrhwk> then a lot of people new that, Matt
[21:36] <Wintrhwk> you made a habit of showing it off
[21:36] <Wintrhwk> new=knew
<[NTDude]> oh yea, so it's my fault you blabbed off in multiple channels saying
how I stole your tcl and now all the sudden the box is destroyed and your not
supirsed? but yet you are trying to turn it around like it's myfault...
[21:37] <Wintrhwk> not saying it is anyone's fault
<[NTDude]> yea, pasting multiple df's in channels and giving people stuff if
Icould is grounds for deleting / destroying a box.
[21:38] <Wintrhwk> I am saying how the ip is out
[21:38] <Wintrhwk> nothing to do with what happened
<[NTDude]> haha of course not, you knew someone would wipe the box as soon as
you pasted whatever the hell it was, which turns out to be false in the end...
[21:39] <Wintrhwk> Cybrdeath should have kept his mouth shut
[21:40] <Wintrhwk> but I asked no one to do it
<[NTDude]> no you should have kept your mouth shut until you had all the facts
[21:40] <Wintrhwk> I had no need
<[NTDude]> but since your always right you do not know how to do that
[21:40] <Wintrhwk> you saying he is a liar?
[21:40] <Wintrhwk> why should I not have taken him at his word
[21:40] <Wintrhwk> that you gave them to him
[21:40] <Wintrhwk> and he had them?
<[NTDude]> from what I gather he said that in the heat of a argument about
something which I have no idea what it is over...
[21:41] <Wintrhwk> so, why should i not have taken him at his word?
<[NTDude]> based on what? That he said he had them? 
[21:43] <Wintrhwk> that he said he had them from you, yes
<[NTDude]> well I am telling you I did not give them to him
[21:44] <Wintrhwk> just like oyu did not intentionally delete my dir
[21:44] <Wintrhwk> and then later to save face you said it was the OS
<[NTDude]> no I did not intentionally delete your directory
[21:44] <Wintrhwk> after telling me you did it on purpose
<[NTDude]> it was the OS, etiher ask (box owner) or go email [email protected]
if you want more info
[21:44] <Wintrhwk> I have you saying you did it on purpose
<[NTDude]> Maggie, when I said those things I was mad and hurt, tell me your
smarter than that..
[21:45] <Wintrhwk> so you and Cyber like to brag and say shit that is not true?
<[NTDude]> I don't know what he does I am not his baby sitter, but how dare you
paste that shit in those channels knowing someone would do something and they
play your little fucking innocence game with me?  You srue you don't have
[21:46] <Wintrhwk> Matt, get real....
<[NTDude]> and in re to you helping find out who did this, you shouldn't have
to look very far, whoever it was is right under your nose, and they know you
very well hence them talking about sellling warez and such and how I need a
[21:46] <Wintrhwk> If I wanted to ahrm you I would have done it the day you
acted like a pussy cause I liked Cyberst more than you
<[NTDude]> you know exactly who did it and do not portray like you have no idea
that anything happened
[21:47] <Wintrhwk> no I do not
[21:47] <Wintrhwk> If I ddi this I would smear it in your face
<[NTDude]> nah, I wish you would have done it that way...the way you did it
hurt even more...
<[NTDude]> long and drug out death

The next 1.5 hours (or thereabouts) dealt had us talking about past fights
we've had.  Why I do not go into channels that I used to visit.  Talk about my
friendships with other people, all of which is irrelevant here.  Then: (This is
same day, same conversation)

<[NTDude]> Anyhow, the box is gone and is not coming back.  The dns is gone and
won't be back.  Our friendship has come and gone and I don't know where this is
leading.  Perhaps I could assume that you might miss me a little.  I woudln't
want to flatter myself but if I said I didn't miss you I would be lieing, as I
do very much.  I am just mad as hell at you...
[23:25] <Wintrhwk> yup
<[NTDude]> if you say you did not ask anyone to do this I will beleive you, but
surely you can not sit there in your chair and tell me you didn't expect
anything to happen pasting all that stuff in those channels...
[23:27] <Wintrhwk> no, I did not...I expected no one to really care
<[NTDude]> well sometimes (well mosto ft he time) things do not turn out as
'expected' .. we both know that
[23:28] <Wintrhwk> very true
<[NTDude]> I expect to win the lottery every week, but I don't..

Yes I did say that I beleived that she did not have it done.  I have since
changed my mind.
Looks to me she is snowballing me with her acting all concerned about what
happenened.  And perhaps even feeling guilty and trying to ease the blow she
had dealt upon me.

Here is the final log (done today I beleive, 07/13/97) of Cybrdeath vs.
Wintrhwk of him trying to tell her that I didn't give him that tcl and him
finally admitting that he never had it to begin with...*sigh* almost done...:)

<Cybrdeath> for one, you assumed that ntdude gave ne the tcl , which makes you
completely full of shit, cuz not once, did i ever mention where or who it came
from, why are you saying that i said it was him?
<Cybrdeath> for second, your tcl is not being used, and has been deleted, not
that you care
[4:16] <Wintrhwk> only one way you got the tcl, was to use him
<Cybrdeath> did i ever say that
<Cybrdeath> did i once say
<Cybrdeath> ntdude gave me the tcl? haha
<Cybrdeath> ??/
<Cybrdeath> did i?
[4:16] <Wintrhwk> that tcl was no place else
<Cybrdeath> NO
[4:17] <Wintrhwk> but here and there
<Cybrdeath> so u assumed that i got it from here correct?
[4:17] <Wintrhwk> and you did not get it from here
[4:17] <Wintrhwk> you did not get i my system here
<Cybrdeath> there is no tcl
<Cybrdeath> it was all a bogus plot to piss you off
<Cybrdeath> i didn't use ntdude, i didn't make him give it to me, he deleted me
the same day he deleted you
[4:18] <Wintrhwk> make up your mind
<Cybrdeath> anyway
<Cybrdeath> bottom line
[4:18] <Wintrhwk> so which is it?
<Cybrdeath> it never existed, i am trying to get you to leave him alone, for me
opening my mouth in a fight against you

As you can see there, cybr admits that he never had the tcl nor did he ever
have it.  

To sum it all up.  She plays innocent and arrogant very well.  As you can see
she tries to act all concerned and ask for the logs of the random nicks that I
was /msg'd when the box was being destroyed.  She says she is gonna go try and
find out whoever did this.  Please do not buy into her shit, this is ALL
BULLSHIT.  She knows exactly what she is doing, as she is very good at
manipulation of  people's minds.  She knew exactly what would happen when she
pasted that shit into channels.  She knows exactly who she had do it, and all
for a tcl that never existed.  But will she ever admit that she is wrong?  Hell
no, she is too proud and perfect.  

I hear a lot of people refer to her as the 'Scene Queen'  *SIGH* Perhaps we
need to take a step back, and open our eyes and re-think things.  Is this who
we want as our Queen?  Someone who runs off at the mouth before she has all of
the facts and has things destroyed?  Or, do we want someone as our Queen who
says fuck every now and then to keep the early teen males impressed.  I feel it
must be the latter, because it impresses even full grown adults as well.  I
hope you all have a different perspective on not only myself, but also how she
operates and does things.  And I just hope that it is not your shell box she
has destroyed next time someone blabs something in a channel, or decides they
do not want to associate with her anymore and deletes her shell.

If you all took the time to read this thing completely through and understand
why it was necessary for it to be so long, I would like to thank you.  If not,
your selling me, and yourself short of ALL of the facts...and I beleive the
scene needs to know the 100% truth.

On a final note.  She is not the only one with friends.  No linux box on the
'net can be 100% hack proof.  I've had multiple friends, both on EFNet and
UnderNET ask me for the IP's of all the sites she siteop's on and they would
take them out.  But I am NOT gonna EVER do that.  Even tho she had me
destroyed, I will not stoop to her level, two wrongs will not make a right.
Tell me what good would having Dreamland and all the other sites she is part
of, hacked and destroyed?  Answer is NONE.  Also note this is not asking for
anyone to take upon themselves to seek revenge on my behalf against her either.
As I am not condoning any such act.

Thanks again, 

Matt (a.k.a [NTDude] on iRC)

P.S. Maggie I am sure you will have some type of response to this, as you like
the art of war.  Please if you post any other logs which you feel I left out
please remit the box owners nick as he does not want to be involved in this
anymore than he already is, as he does not have time.  Your bone to pick is
with me, not him. Please leave him out of it.  Thanks.
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